I am not familiar with Unexplored, though. Which means I know what I'll be looking into at work today during "training hours."

Rogue likes are weird--I want to like them. They look interesting. They just never end up being actually fun to me. It's like 4X games for me, too. They all seem awesome, I can just never really get into them even though I want to.

I like FTL quite a bit, and I bought Unexplored a while ago after Austin Walker talked about and streamed it, and I liked that one, too. I just fall off really fast.

I can imagine a destiny procedural strike where every third room lets you "buy" (with in-game tokens from that run only) modifiers for the rest of your run. There could also be negative status rooms that prevented you from using supers or forced you to use only randomly spawned green guns. You're totally right that the fundamentals are all in place for a great procedurally done endless mode.

If they were not located on the destination map, but the symbols were still painted around the areas, would that be acceptable?

It would to me, but I'm not saying it's unacceptable now. I'm still hoping that there's content that's hidden that will be discovered over time.

Agreed. I honestly I don't really mind they're posted on the map. But I also don't think of the map as a checklist. :)

In the context of gameplay I think everyone cannagree that Destiny doesn't have a problem with its core loop. There are a lot of Rogue-likes with gameplay loops that are just not to everyones taste, and some rely too heavily on the repetion of failure for a lot of players. Also an aspect I think Destiny doesn't have excluding Raid Design.

Now, in regard to developers not understanding what is good in procedural generation? I have my personal taste which leads to my theories on this. Now, the joke at the start comes from being introduced to playing Rogue as a small child on an old Tandy computer. Circa 90-91. It was highly influential on my entertainment. My conclusion is that the things that make a good Rogue-like are the exact same as the things that made Rogue good. Those are the things that don't change between runs.

Yes. Bear with me while I talk about how the best aspect of randomly generated games are the parts that aren't randomly generated and why the random generation is still important. I have three examples I'd like to reference in regard to how Destiny could benefit from the same ideas. A lot of these were things I wished PoE had when I first heard about it. It is also what I wanted the Dark Woods to be.

Diablo: Or the Controlled Random Experience -
Obviously Destiny has drawn a lot from Diablo on the loot side of things. But I think the location generation and enemy spawning was the best aspect of the original Diablo. It is why it was content that was worth replaying. There were things that were set (what tileset was used on floor and what enemies are able to be spawned) and things that were random (the layout and enemy distribution) allowing for unique but generally predictable experiences. I don't think this would be a problem at all for Bungie to build, especially with the structure of their art assets/design and my understand of how their antagonist AI works. I might be wrong there, though.

Don't Starve: Or How Players Influence the Random Experience -
In Don't Starve, and as it follows Don't Starve Together, the key thing is that the game plays in cycles. It is a survival game but you improve your chances of survival through base building. This is also the same sort of reason Minecraft works for a lot of people. The ability to build or set actions is very powerful. It gives players the ability to creator order within the chaos. With Sync Plates and Dunking mechanics it wouldn't be hard to establish things that players get randomly being turned into results that they have control over. Whether that is summoning Scorch Cannons that refresh or other resource generators/healing points.

Binding of Isaac: Or Why Random Factors Help Emergent Experiences -
There is so much i can discuss here about BoI as to a Rogue-like done "right" that I won't try. But there is one aspect I think would work effectively in a fame like Destiny. The best and worst experiences in BoI exist because of the interaction of different items overlapping and interacting. When you beat that Final-Final-Final Boss when you are out of health because you happen to shoot spreading projectiles that eliminate enemy projectiles is a very powerful experience. Destiny has modifiers. And we've already been shown how some of these create challenging experiences and how some when combined create absurd novelties. Arc Burn, Airborne, Brawler Peregrine Greaves I am looking at you.

So, in summary, tl;dr, w/e: Destiny has everything in place to support good procedural gameplay. How much time investment it would take to incorporate those systems compared to building new fleshed out Patrol Spaces? I don't have an answer. But in the context of being done right I think Destiny already has the necessary foundation for benefiting from procedural generation.

I agree with Cody. The point about Donkey Kong is that those secrets and the bananas that pointed to them were never explicitly indicated to the player in any way. Until it wad discovered those bananas were just like every other banana in the game as far as the players knew. The secret had to be discovered without any handholding.

Contrast to the lost sector symbol which is known to be an indicator of a lost sector close by. It was shown off before the game was even released. We knew going into the game what the symbol meant. The "secret" was already spoiled for us. Even without the indicator on the map, the symbol is a dead giveaway as soon as you see it in the game world. We never had the chance to discover the lost sectors ourselves. They were already pointed out to us.

If they were not located on the destination map, but the symbols were still painted around the areas, would that be acceptable?

It would to me, but I'm not saying it's unacceptable now. I'm still hoping that there's content that's hidden that will be discovered over time.

(I'm trying to make it analogous with the bananas)

Random and/or procedural content is incredibly difficult to make good and fun. We have a whole genre for that. They're called rogue likes, and they almost universally suck.

Oh. I'm never going to convince you if you don't think Diablo 2 was one of the greatest games of all time.

No, wait, I think you're confused…

If it's marked, it's not a secret. The key is to have some secrets that are easy to find with hints….

For example, in Donkey Kong Country, if you see a banana over a pit, you know 99 times out of 100 there's a secret in the pit.

How is a banana different than a symbol on the wall? I think you might want to go back and rethink your argument.

Because it doesn't indicate anything until you learn the rule. Bananas are like coins or rings. On their own they mean nothing. This is a secret marker.

And bananas over pits is the easiest secrets rule to find in DKC.

How is a banana different than a symbol on the wall? I think you might want to go back and rethink your argument.

can you eat a symbol or throw it at a go kart? no. your argument is invalid.

If it's marked, it's not a secret. The key is to have some secrets that are easy to find with hints….

For example, in Donkey Kong Country, if you see a banana over a pit, you know 99 times out of 100 there's a secret in the pit.

How is a banana different than a symbol on the wall? I think you might want to go back and rethink your argument.

Random and/or procedural content is incredibly difficult to make good and fun. We have a whole genre for that. They're called rogue likes, and they almost universally suck.

I don't debate that it could be done, it's just way too hard to justify the cost.

I think there is a new Warhammer 40k game coming out that does this, the rooms, internal clutter, and enemies are each procedurally generated to form a dungeon.

D1 did the latter two with the Prison of Elders. Really D2 should be able to have a stable of prebuilt rooms they could put together and then generate the latter two. I think the major opportunity would be to add all the various raid mechanics so players could get used to them outside raids/trials etc.

PoE is exactly what I'm thinking about when I say it's too hard to make it good. I liked PoE for what it was, but there was such little variety in the encounters that there might as well have been none at all.

There's a big difference between "Bungie didn't do a good job at that last time" and "it's impossible for a AAA FPS to do it at all"

If there are a thousand secrets and the player finds zero of them then there is no benefit.

The real solution is to have a compromise and a progression:

- Some secrets specifically pointed out as part of the story, like the Lost Sector below the church. These get the player clued in that there are even secrets to look for.
- Have some easy ones marked and on the map. These ones have been found but were too dangerous to explore at that time.
- Then have a few really secret ones that are extra tough (to find and beat) that give out double extra good rewards.

If it's part of the (main) story, it's not a secret. If it's marked, it's not a secret. The key is to have some secrets that are easy to find with hints, some that require a bit more, and some that require a lot of thought and investigation.

It also helps if the secrets have 'rules'. For example, in Donkey Kong Country, if you see a banana over a pit, you know 99 times out of 100 there's a secret in the pit. Not obvious, but when you learn it it opens up a new world.