And yep, I've met tons of people who play games in just the way that article says we can't.

I doubt it. I'd like to talk to one of those people. If you are one, reply below with an example of how you do this. Thanks!

I'm one of those people. But I don't want to talk to you about it because you are self-righteous, close minded and you will shit on anyone's opinion that doesn't elevate your own views.

And how is you withholding your argument going to help me change my mind? I want to be surrounded with opposing views - I'll either change my mind, or strengthen my own position. Have the intellectual curiosity and fortitude to engage in a discussion here.

Because I don't care if you change our mind. What you will do is beat people over the head with your intellectual curiosity and fortitude, and the debate never ends until people either submit or they get tired of it and move on.

I think you're mostly right, but if you don't care and it won't do anything, why did you reply to him?

I have been advised by my internet lawyer to discourage people from continuing this subthread.

Halo was lightning captured in a bottle sure, but you can't just make another bottle and expect lightning already to be in it.

Who said anything about expecting? Parsons' operative word was "want." I think this is the root of the whole negative tangent in this thread: confusing Bungie's desire for Destiny to be a big deal with them believing that it's a certainty.

This is like saying you want to make a viral video. You can't. Just make good videos and maybe if you're lucky one will get watched by more than 10 people.

So, you are saying that wanting a video to go viral doesn't make it happen. That is 100% true, of course. You also say the best approach is to just make it the best you can, and hope for the best. That, I also agree with. It's true of viral videos, games, and just about everything else.

The problem I'm seeing with this thread is that some posters seem to believe that Bungie has to make a distinct choice between these two approaches:

1. Try to create a cultural phenomenon.

2. Just buckle down and make a great game.

This is nonsense. What is actually happening is that they're buckling down and making a great game, WHILE simultaneously hoping that it becomes a big deal. I don't understand the idea that this is somehow a black-or-white choice between items 1 and 2. It is absolutely possible to work hard and do the best you can, WHILE hoping that something grand comes of it. And there's nothing wrong with it, either.

I think it comes from that ("cultural significance" or "cultural phenomenon" or "as successful/well-known/good as this and that and this etc.") and two assumptions. Firstly there's the assumption that they're not just hoping and wishing it turns out as a phenomenon, they're doing something to try to make it happen, which I think makes sense. Secondly there's the assumption that a "cultural phenomenon" like the ones that have been referred to are things that quote-unquote everyone likes, or at least can appreciate, which brings to mind focus groups and surveys and behaviorists and soccer moms.

Halo was lightning captured in a bottle sure, but you can't just make another bottle and expect lightning already to be in it.

Who said anything about expecting? Parsons' operative word was "want." I think this is the root of the whole negative tangent in this thread: confusing Bungie's desire for Destiny to be a big deal with them believing that it's a certainty.

This is like saying you want to make a viral video. You can't. Just make good videos and maybe if you're lucky one will get watched by more than 10 people.

So, you are saying that wanting a video to go viral doesn't make it happen. That is 100% true, of course. You also say the best approach is to just make it the best you can, and hope for the best. That, I also agree with. It's true of viral videos, games, and just about everything else.

The problem I'm seeing with this thread is that some posters seem to believe that Bungie has to make a distinct choice between these two approaches:

1. Try to create a cultural phenomenon.

2. Just buckle down and make a great game.

This is nonsense. What is actually happening is that they're buckling down and making a great game, WHILE simultaneously hoping that it becomes a big deal. I don't understand the idea that this is somehow a black-or-white choice between items 1 and 2. It is absolutely possible to work hard and do the best you can, WHILE hoping that something grand comes of it. And there's nothing wrong with it, either.

I got into trouble at work for refusing to live the way "they wanted me to live" and was not considered for promotion.

Do you mean they wanted you to work longer hours i.e. devote more of your life to work?

Isn't it fascinating that while our productivity greatly increased, through the use of technique and technology, instead of choosing to work less and have more free time, we instead chose to work MORE? It's perhaps the greatest cultural mistake we have ever made! I mean, if back in the day it took you 8 hours to do some task, but now it takes 2, then why are we not working 2 hour days with the same pay? Instead we work 8 hours and do 4 tasks.

I think it's pretty clear that this is the result of cultural narcissism, in that working more results in more money which can be used to buy more shit which indicates status. As the quote shows, perhaps we should question these metrics as an indicator of worth.

See why it's so bad that things like level and loot now indicate success in games? It's invading our leisure time, something which should be immune to status seeking behavior since it's ostensibly time to do what interests you personally, only because the activity is enjoyable for its own sake.

or, you know, inflation, greed, wanting to give their families and themselves the best they can...

And yep, I've met tons of people who play games in just the way that article says we can't.

I doubt it. I'd like to talk to one of those people. If you are one, reply below with an example of how you do this. Thanks!

I'm one of those people. But I don't want to talk to you about it because you are self-righteous, close minded and you will shit on anyone's opinion that doesn't elevate your own views.

And how is you withholding your argument going to help me change my mind? I want to be surrounded with opposing views - I'll either change my mind, or strengthen my own position. Have the intellectual curiosity and fortitude to engage in a discussion here.

Because I don't care if you change our mind. What you will do is beat people over the head with your intellectual curiosity and fortitude, and the debate never ends until people either submit or they get tired of it and move on.

I think you're mostly right, but if you don't care and it won't do anything, why did you reply to him?

I think you have good points and you're right about all of this... except he did say "We like to tell big stories and we want people to put the Destiny universe on the same shelf they put Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter or Star Wars"; saying "on the same shelf" could mean a lot of things, including cultural impact.

Right. Could being the key word.

Yes, I wasn't saying that was it, I was just saying that despite not being said in so many words, that might have been the intent.

Plus, is it that important even if he did mean that way?

No, just like theorizing about Destiny or any game or solving puzzles related to them isn't that important.

He's putting forth their ambitions, their dreams, not necessarily their method and inspiration. I really doubt every designer, artist, and engineer at Bungie are sitting there in front of their screens thinking "what way can I draw this ship or sculpt this enemy or balance this weapon to have the most cultural impact?"

well, duh >_>

I would hate to have a forum dissect every comment I make during the day. There are so many intentions and interpretations dependent on so many important details! Even if you get it right, should every thing I say define me and everything I do absolutely? I say things that are half-right or all-wrong all the time, as I try to get closer to conveying the truth. I think everybody does this in varying degrees, even people in the public spotlight do.

Don't we all sometimes think "what the hell did I just say?" I don't know, I have that thought a LOT, even when I'm thinking really hard on what to say (or post). :)

Are you serious? Going over statements (among other things) with a fine-toothed comb is what we do, and they know that, and anyway most every company is careful about who says what to the public for these and other reasons.

That's not going to happen for the simple reason that Bungie simply does not have good writers that actually understand and can tell stories with significant human experience or emotion. Sounds harsh but it's true.

Harsh, yes. You sound like a jerk, actually. It's a debatable point based on past games, but it's not a point you know enough to make presently, unless you've got some inside information.

I think Destiny will provide some pretty solid evidence one way or the other. Bungie appears to have plenty of time, resources, and is not beholden to anything that came before story-telling wise.

Long story short, Halo 4 was almost the best Halo game ever but for a few major plot and character flubs, the lack of Halo music, and some really bad sound effects. (Warthog, I am looking at you especially!)

The poor warthog... I died a little bit inside when I first gunned it on Requiem.

Maybe it was just Requiem's atmosphere that made the engine cry. Gosh I hope it gets fixed.

I still can't shake certain qualms, but this reminded me as to why I was happy with the game regardless of whatever loose ends didn't get tied up as nicely as they could have.

…that especially worked because we had been with these characters for three games now and were saying goodbye.

Indeed! When you rescue Cortana in Halo 3 the exchange IS the perfect combination of all the Chief / Cortana interactions up until that point. They referenced Halo 2 with the part about keeping promises. Then, my favorite part, they reference Halo 1 with: "Keep your head down, there's two of us in here now, remember." But they did it so amazingly well. Yes, it was a slow scene with quiet music, but with that line I was pumped to go back outside that room and kick the Gravemind's ass, more so than even when Rock Anthem for Saving The World would come up in Halo 1. It's because it was a call back that only people like us would get without having to be reminded. Because that line reminded me of all the times I did keep my head down and won the day, and all the times I didn't and had to start a section over. And because it meant both that this really was Halo again (proper Halo being the Chief shooting and Cortana advising) and because it meant I had a new, mostly unstated objective to keep Cortana safe and get us both out of the hell we were in. Usually me and the Chief are two different people, but right then I was the Master Chief, and that was awesome.

I hadn't thought of that seen in all these discussions about story we've been having recently. Thanks for reminding me about it! :)

I'm not quite as optimistic as you about Truth's end game, but no need to quibble over that when the greater point you made deserves to be emphasized. Halo 3 was a good game with some really good story points. And it and the other Bungie Halos, and unlike Halo 4, told a solid story with very few plot holes or strange character reversals, like Mr. Didact's. They're not the best video game stories ever told, but individually and especially when taken as a whole, they are very good.

I definitely don't view the Halo stories in the same way as say a Hironobu Sakaguchi tale (the classic Final Fantasies). I judge stories usually by what they're meant to do. For Halo: make me feel like a badass saving the world when all hell is breaking loose, or at times, to make me curious and explorative in a mysterious world and culture. Halo 3 added in a perfect amount of touching, emotional connection, that especially worked because we had been with these characters for three games now and were saying goodbye.

I also don't just see Bungie's 'story' in the script - I see it in their art direction, audio, and gameplay. When Halo is at its best, it's when all those things, plus the story, are aligned to create that magic Halo experience. When I've finished shooting an alien in its face, and I look up at some human architecture and think "Wait a minute - I think this might mirror a Forerunner structure I've been in. Wow, That's a nice little nod to the story."

For their intents, I think Bungie usually tells great stories - but that's because those stories are only starting points inside the actual game, the rest is in our imagination, our observations, our speculation, and the choices we make when we ramp a Warthog onto a Scarab and go flying off on fire thinking 'this is so cool'.

Sometimes I think my one complaint with Bungie stories is also my greatest compliment: "I WANTED MORE, DAMNIT!"

I can give ya the next one, but I don't know about this one. It definitely LOOKED cool, but I don't think it explained the ancient human history very well. My girlfriend who has played the main Halo trilogy only had absolutely no idea what was going on. Hell, I could barely understand it. There were way too many new twists and concepts in a such a short amount of time. They should have spread it out throughout the game, along with exposition on the Didact and why he wasn't just a simple vampire wanting to murder Earth - which is all my girlfriend grasped as well. It was only in his after credits monologue that we had any interesting depth to his character and hint of understanding to his goals. But that's not a very good place for that to start happening, hah!

Heh. I only half remembered the scene as I was writing this part. I think, if you take the Halo 4 terminals as a whole, and combine them with the knowledge in the first two Forerunner books, you'll see that 343 was actually doing a really good job of expanding Halo's story. They managed to add in a new, interesting twist to Humanity's past that still fit with the already established Halo story. That's pretty cool.

If not for the Didact being evil for no real reason I think Halo 4 would have been looked on much more favorably. They had several ways out. This Didact could have been driven mad by his encounter with the Flood or torture at the hands of the Master Builder. Or this Didact could somehow know (and / or perhaps be obsessed with the idea) that the Flood / Precursor threat was still out there and stopping them was more important than his wife's plans for Humanity. Instead we got no hints that he was crazy, and no real hints about his motivation. He wanted an army… apparently… but we weren't even really told what he wanted on for!

Long story short, Halo 4 was almost the best Halo game ever but for a few major plot and character flubs, the lack of Halo music, and some really bad sound effects. (Warthog, I am looking at you especially!)

Someone the other day compared the writing in the Halo games to the writing of Dexter right now, and if you don't watch Dexter, then realize that the comparison is not flattering for Halo because the writing in Dexter is terrible.

Unfortunately, I'd have to agree with this statement (despite having not seen any of season eight yet - so no spoilers!), especially after the fifth season. As a rather large Dexter fan, it cuts deep. Deep, I tells ya'.

Yeah, I went there.

"Bones posted?!?! Holy crap!!!"

~ Paddy...while on my bed.

- Cortana's echo-y distress call on the opening cutscene with the in half Forward Unto Dawn. Ignoring that it's not the same ship that scene has the right tone… well until Cortana appears and starts displaying a virtual, holographic touch screen for her avatar to swipe around for no reason… Still the audio and visuals up till then are powerful and set a great mood, just one that is quickly tossed aside. :(

It helps that it began with the classic musical motif that began all of the Halo trilogy titles. Sadly, the composer didn't wish to revist any of the other main themes except at the sight of a Halo for a brief moment, and the credits. I'm all for new music, but a Bond film needs its Secret Agent Man, Star Wars needs its fanfare, etc. Halo needed some of its classic themes. It's been four console games since we've had the Truth and Reconciliation Suite!

- The Librarian telling of Humanity's struggles with the Flood and Forerunner is pretty decent. It had a good mood and would be a highlight of the Halo/Human/Forerunner story if the rest of Halo 4 had supported it better. :(

I can give ya the next one, but I don't know about this one. It definitely LOOKED cool, but I don't think it explained the ancient human history very well. My girlfriend who has played the main Halo trilogy only had absolutely no idea what was going on. Hell, I could barely understand it. There were way too many new twists and concepts in a such a short amount of time. They should have spread it out throughout the game, along with exposition on the Didact and why he wasn't just a simple vampire wanting to murder Earth - which is all my girlfriend grasped as well. It was only in his after credits monologue that we had any interesting depth to his character and hint of understanding to his goals. But that's not a very good place for that to start happening, hah!

- Cortana's scene after the scientists are digitalized is very good. It hits home the story point that she is dying and that she doesn't want to be replaced, even by herself. Too bad it's only a short bit of gameplay before we're reminded that the Didact is evil for no reason and has a plan that make no sense. :(

The thing is, I think those three scene are actually some of the best in all of Halo. Bungie was always… very standoffish with the greater fiction of their universe and never really connected with it, or outright attempted to rewrite it as in Reach. Halo 4, despite all its flaws, did attempt to, and in some cases very successfully did, connect to its surrounding fiction. It just dropped the ball in connecting the book Didact to the game Didact so badly that no good points could save it.

Yep, for me at least - the Didact and the overall depiction of the Forerunners and the lack of explaining this new Covenant splinter cell... at all, really made the events of the game make no sense to me. The terminals needed to be an integral part of the game, not something I had to go watch on Waypoint later if I remembered it. I still don't think I've watched them all.

What was Cortana's plan when she stayed behind on High Charity?

They talk about that in the game: to help MC get on the Forerunner ship by delaying it's launch and to set off In Amber Clad to kill the flood (which of course she failed at).

Why did Regret jump the gun?

I can't remember if this is in one of the games... someone let me know if it wasn't, but I remember the reason he went was because he had located an artifact that he believed could guide them to the Ark, and he didn't even realize it was Earth he was going to.

Yes, this is explained in the messages Cortana intercepts while you're traveling in the underwater elevator in the level Regret.

It is also displayed by the depiction of his character and further scenes in the EU, like in Cole Protocol. He was always cunning and deceitful, trying to pull a fast one over Truth and gain the upper hand in their scheming tribunal.

As for Cortana's plan, I think she explains it plainly and directly in Halo 2. It is also elaborated further upon in Human Weakness in the Evolutions anthology.

But, you seem to think they pulled it off? I'm curious. If you don't mind, could you elaborate on the parts of the story that you thought did this? Maybe I'm forgetting things that should have stuck out to me more.

For me, Halo 1 introduced the universe and gave us a nice self-contained story. Halo 2 built the universe into a deeper and engaging world with many new characters and motivations to side with or to oppose. It ended in a string of cliffhangers. The table was set. Halo 3 was about watching that table explode and the oppositions and allies meet in epic combat. I was looking for the Return of the King, not a whole new set of questions and expositions. I wanted the scope to be pushed and that feeling of back-against-the-wall fighting recaptured. And yet, besides Chief leaving Cortana behind on High Charity, Halo 3 had almost all the personal, emotional scenes that really affected me in the trilogy.

There are not necessarily surprising twists or turns in the story, but actions and subtle tells combined with perfectly suited art and audio direction that connected me directly to much more than what they might seem to appear to be in a simple script.

Examples:

-The introduction - building up both Cortana's and the UNSC's need for the Chief, as well as Sgt. Johnson's friendship. Chief has always been a force of nature for the UNSC and a symbol of hope for humanity, but I felt that much of those elements were lost in the romp through an empty Mombassa. But here with a squad tasked with finding and reviving the fallen Chief, and the group guarding him like he's a dying angel (with stirring music to match) - all of that really grounded me into Chief's vital role in a sacked Earth. He felt more like a super hero in Halo 2's early Earth levels, and the danger of the threat of invasion wasn't there as much as in the game's previews. Now it was finally here! "Reinforcements are on the spoke."

-The wounded soldiers astonished to see a Spartan alive in Crow's Nest. This was the kind of little stuff I loved in the Halo 2 E3 demo, but never seemed to translate to the final game. Instead we got a lot of David Cross and wisecrackers (which I still enjoyed in their own right). Now we were finally starting to see the importance of the Chief as a symbol as the world falls apart around him. Truth's transmission highlighted this again. "Does he always mention me?"

-The music and Lord Hood's voice and words will always stir me into battle at the end of Tsavo Highway. "Okay, I'm ready to defend Minas Tirith now."

-The atmosphere, the storm, the crater, the legion of Covenant, the crashing Longswords, and the loud booms of the Scarab and the AA gun will always make the Storm one of my favorite levels. The feeling of desperation has rarely been matched in another game for me. This was finally my chance to fight for Earth, alongside civilian workers no less, on a literal precipice at the end of the world. New and classic musical themes, especially the whole level revolving around "Brothers In Arms" recaptured that feeling of fighting alongside brave GI Joes that I had felt years ago on Halo. The cinematic at the end is just the cherry on top. I made weird, unmanly gasps when a ridiculous number of Longswords flew over my head, followed by three frigates unleashing their MAC cannons.

-The cinematic at the end of Floodgate has some of the most emotional and subtle bits that speak volumes to me. When Lord Hood asks if Chief trusts Cortana and he immediately answers "Sir, Yes, Sir." I had a shiver of goosebumps up my spine. That is probably one of the highlights from the entirety of Halo cinematics for me. Then seeing the Elites and UNSC trade weapons was a nice little scene that conveyed their union shortly and sweetly. And at the very end we see Lord Hood leaving Miranda and Chief behind. The red lighting of the Pelican troop bay really accentuates the somber mood and as the hatch closes we see Hood flinch a little. A sort of distrust and despair in what he's allowed them to do.

-Johnson's sadness at losing Miranda and being forced to activate the destruction of the galaxy. Especially when Chief reaches them and looks over at Johnson holding Miranda.

-The subtle reveals of Truth's knowledge of the Forerunners and what the rings really do (along with Contact Harvest) made me very happy because (while it is still highly interpretable) I felt that I had been right in my theory: Truth WOULD ascend to a "god", because he knew the Ark would lower the rest of the galaxy beneath him, leaving him a king with an army of fools with no one to match him. "But that secret dies with all the rest."

-Cortana's reunion with the Chief was VERY personal for me, and straddled that perfect line of friendship and maybe a hint of something more that I thought suited those two characters best.

-"Send me out with a bang." couple with the stirring violin and Chief's stoic looks... I couldn't enjoy the awesome Maw Run sequel the first few playthroughs because I was too somber from losing the un-loseable, my Johnson. The cinematography and music and Cortana's last line as Forward Unto Dawn attempts to escape is also very emotional for me. "Were it so easy" and "Wake me when you need me" continued to be great emotional farewells to these characters.

These scenes are mostly all centered on one or two short lines of dialogue or a few simple actions, and coupled with perfect scoring, cinematography, color, and lighting, they said so much more to me than if they added in a whole heap of dialogue explaining every little thing. Looking at his storyboards, this has much to do with Lee Wilson (and Marty O'Donnell and everyone else, of course). Coupled with the large-scale vehicle battles I wanted, the classic tunes revisited, and a brilliant and touching Forerunner story that revealed more about them while somehow still keeping them vague and mysterious, was all I ever wanted in a Halo game, especially the concluding Halo game (in many ways). The only thing I perhaps wanted a bit more of was exploring and defending an Earth city... which I just happened to get in Halo 3's expansion pack: ODST!

Of course, I also looked forward to Halo 3 with optimism, delight, and curiosity and I'm sure that colored my initial experiences. As I'm sure Cody's months of cynicism will color his experience with Destiny.

If you guys ever want to fall in love with Halo 3, play sometime with me and Padraig. Our excitement combined will infect you.

I know it's Levi's opinion, but I'd argue that H3 didn't really pull even some of the bigger parts off. Why did Regret jump the gun? What was Cortana's plan when she stayed behind on High Charity? What's H3 tell us? Doesn't matter, no reason/who cares.

For the record, I enjoy playing H3 for the most part, but a lot of the gameplay and level design just absolutely kills me. And the story itself only gets satisfying near the end of the game. I'd argue that the first 4-5 levels serve just about no purpose.

I also disagree that H4 does the big or small story points well. I've ripped that story to pieces enough over at HBO, no need to carry that over here. :P

Halo 4 gets a few thing right:

- Cortana's echo-y distress call on the opening cutscene with the in half Forward Unto Dawn. Ignoring that it's not the same ship that scene has the right tone… well until Cortana appears and starts displaying a virtual, holographic touch screen for her avatar to swipe around for no reason… Still the audio and visuals up till then are powerful and set a great mood, just one that is quickly tossed aside. :(

- The Librarian telling of Humanity's struggles with the Flood and Forerunner is pretty decent. It had a good mood and would be a highlight of the Halo/Human/Forerunner story if the rest of Halo 4 had supported it better. :(

- Cortana's scene after the scientists are digitalized is very good. It hits home the story point that she is dying and that she doesn't want to be replaced, even by herself. Too bad it's only a short bit of gameplay before we're reminded that the Didact is evil for no reason and has a plan that make no sense. :(

The thing is, I think those three scene are actually some of the best in all of Halo. Bungie was always… very standoffish with the greater fiction of their universe and never really connected with it, or outright attempted to rewrite it as in Reach. Halo 4, despite all its flaws, did attempt to, and in some cases very successfully did, connect to its surrounding fiction. It just dropped the ball in connecting the book Didact to the game Didact so badly that no good points could save it.