For instance, as I wrote in the other post-- if you imagine Halo like an RPG, each player starts playing the 1st level and has a "player level" of 1. Each level completion grants an additional "player level" and each level has a minimum required level equal to its number in the level sequence.

Your 'level' does not have any effect on avatar power. So in principle it is different.

You can't spend your entire time in the argument being ridiculously reductive and then retreat to minutiae when it suits you.

In terms of player progression through content, the above are equivalent. The moment-to-moment experience of "how much damage am I doing to this enemy and why" are separate. Destiny has the usual curve where you start out underleveled, surpass your enemies, you're OP for a little bit, and then you advance to the next area where there are tougher enemies. Halo does not do this but it still unlocks the next area only when the previous one is complete. The difference would be that the relationship between player and enemy power in Destiny is expressed as an average or a median, whereas in Halo it is a constant, and encounter difficulty is modulated entirely by enemy number and placement.

Neither of those are relevant to the discussion, though, and you knew that when you posted it.

Playing a strike over and over in hopes of getting loot.
Shooting dudes in a cave over and over to get loot.

1. Both repetitive
2. Both motivated by reward
3. Both done with efficiency

The exact same thing, one is just disguised better.

You as usual ignored THE MOST IMPORTANT PART of what I said to make your point work.

"If I don't like an activity I don't play it."

And you ignore the point that, at least in rise of Iron, that was not an option if you wanted to raid. I have to play activities I don't like to do Raids and Trials. Rather than improve since TTK, that aspect got worse.

Nothing should hold me back from choosing the challenges I want to tackle. Nothing that is, but myself and my ability.

The Vanguard has no place for prima donnas who want the glory of the raid without putting in the hours doing regular patrols.

Then meet me out in the wild, baby.

That's where the patrols are.

Long term engagement with finite content means repetition. Repetition with finite content and progression means introducing a random element so that progression is not keyed lockstep to content completion. (Progression here can me not just light level, but the continued accumulation of sets of armor and weapons that permit for varying gameplay styles).

Yes! You finally see why designing for long term engagement is a bad goal for any video game. Although, as Halo has proven, there are ways to foster self generated long term engagement: by making your game really awesome and dynamic. Oh, maybe I'll try AotCR without the tank this time! Etc.

No, I don't. I'm just demonstrating that I understand your argument even though I think it's nonsense.

The kind of long-term engagement in Destiny as opposed to Halo is absolutely not the same, and I'm pretty sure Bungie could back that up with hard numbers even if I can't.

In my own personal experience, these are not the same things at all. Even if I also thought Destiny could use more content and less repetition, there is no way Halo was as engaging on the same level. At this point I've put more hours into Destiny than I ever did into Halo even despite its obvious shortcomings, partially because of the long-term engagement and partly because cooperative play over a WAN actually works in Destiny whereas in Halo it's a nightmarish slideshow.

On no level would I acknowledge that "designing for long term engagement is a bad goal" either from a gameplay or a commercial perspective.

Playing a strike over and over in hopes of getting loot.
Shooting dudes in a cave over and over to get loot.

1. Both repetitive
2. Both motivated by reward
3. Both done with efficiency

The exact same thing, one is just disguised better.

You as usual ignored THE MOST IMPORTANT PART of what I said to make your point work.

"If I don't like an activity I don't play it."

And you ignore the point that, at least in rise of Iron, that was not an option if you wanted to raid. I have to play activities I don't like to do Raids and Trials. Rather than improve since TTK, that aspect got worse.

Nothing should hold me back from choosing the challenges I want to tackle. Nothing that is, but myself and my ability.

The Vanguard has no place for prima donnas who want the glory of the raid without putting in the hours doing regular patrols.

Then meet me out in the wild, baby.

For instance, as I wrote in the other post-- if you imagine Halo like an RPG, each player starts playing the 1st level and has a "player level" of 1. Each level completion grants an additional "player level" and each level has a minimum required level equal to its number in the level sequence.

Your 'level' does not have any effect on avatar power. So in principle it is different.

Long term engagement with finite content means repetition. Repetition with finite content and progression means introducing a random element so that progression is not keyed lockstep to content completion. (Progression here can me not just light level, but the continued accumulation of sets of armor and weapons that permit for varying gameplay styles).

Yes! You finally see why designing for long term engagement is a bad goal for any video game. Although, as Halo has proven, there are ways to foster self generated long term engagement: by making your game really awesome and dynamic. Oh, maybe I'll try AotCR without the tank this time! Etc.

The point being, you can dislike it but it isn't correct to equivocate it, but also you're right in that slogging through most of the game for great bits at the end isn't ridiculous; though Xenos can of couree personally think it odd I guess.

But it's exactly equivalent. The 'what' doesn't matter. You could be doing an epic quest spanning an entire game. But the moment you are asked to repeat that as part of investment based progression, it becomes the same thing. Strike playlists and the loot cave are different in degree, but not different in principle.

Understanding this is the key to understanding the poison of investment systems.

How are you being poisoned? If it's poison to you, don't drink it. If you're voluntarily drinking poison you're going to find it hard convincing people that you're so much smarter than them that only you've figured out that this stuff is poison.

Repetition as a method of creating sustained engagement is absolutely unavoidable until technology reaches the point where content can be created more quickly than it can be consumed.

If you want a traditional shooter with traditional level progression go play one-- there are lots! Frankly I don't find the rotation of Destiny's activities to be anywhere near as tediously repetitive as competitive multiplayer is, and yet people do that quite a lot because they like it. And previously that was the only possibility for long term engagement when you're done consuming the campaign content and are just waiting for the next release.

I didn't ignore that I actually addressed it directly in my post "I honestly don't know how anyone could play 100s of hours of this game if the only thing they enjoy takes up 10% of that time."

And I have explained this repeatedly in the past.

Would you not jerk off because the ten second orgasm is not worth the 10 minute trip to the store for lube?

That's a pull quote for a book's dust jacket if I ever saw one.

Playing a strike over and over in hopes of getting loot.
Shooting dudes in a cave over and over to get loot.

1. Both repetitive
2. Both motivated by reward
3. Both done with efficiency

The exact same thing, one is just disguised better.

You as usual ignored THE MOST IMPORTANT PART of what I said to make your point work.

"If I don't like an activity I don't play it."

And you ignore the point that, at least in rise of Iron, that was not an option if you wanted to raid. I have to play activities I don't like to do Raids and Trials. Rather than improve since TTK, that aspect got worse.

Nothing should hold me back from choosing the challenges I want to tackle. Nothing that is, but myself and my ability.

The Vanguard has no place for prima donnas who want the glory of the raid without putting in the hours doing regular patrols.

That is so ridiculously reductive it could apply to ANY game with almost any progression system whatsoever OTHER than one that uses a linear progression with no repetition, no randomization.

If you had said "Investment system" instead of "progression system", and left out everything after 'whatsoever', you'd be 100% correct.

As I put in the other thread, if you get reductive enough you can make a description of progression system that applies even to a game that appears to have no such system whatsoever. The parts of the system that apply to the term "investment" but not to the term "progression" have nothing to do with raid prerequisites. You can make games that have progression, investment, both or neither.

For instance, as I wrote in the other post-- if you imagine Halo like an RPG, each player starts playing the 1st level and has a "player level" of 1. Each level completion grants an additional "player level" and each level has a minimum required level equal to its number in the level sequence.

I realize you don't like investment systems but fer crissakes that ship has sailed. Destiny is a game that has one-- no, more than has one, is damn near built around it, and despite years of shouting that you're running away from home, you're still playing. I think it's possible that further statements on the subject are no longer elucidating.

Meh. Obsessing over advancing your light like that seems unfun. Don’t do unfun things and take comfort that the remaining things are a little be better than they were in Destiny 1. :)

Too bad you kind of have to to be raid ready in a week so you don't get spoiled.

Solution to that is raids come out later, not allowing progression to max light to take place within a week. Sheesh.

Or, you know, don't read spoilers.

No. The solution is no light levels in the game at all.

That's EXACTLY what I described in a different post:

https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?mode=entry&id=136897

That is so ridiculously reductive it could apply to ANY game with almost any progression system whatsoever OTHER than one that uses a linear progression with no repetition, no randomization.

In other words, Halo-style progression. You can imagine every player doing the Halo single-player campaign as entering the game with a level 1 and earning 1 level at the completion of each level, ending the game with a level equal to the number of levels played.

The reasons why this is not the case are obvious-- no progression, no long-term engagement outside of competitive multiplayer. Bungie knew how to make that game. If they wanted to do that, they would.

Long term engagement with finite content means repetition. Repetition with finite content and progression means introducing a random element so that progression is not keyed lockstep to content completion. (Progression here can me not just light level, but the continued accumulation of sets of armor and weapons that permit for varying gameplay styles).

I don't think Bungie's raid launch date is chosen with regard to light levels. Therefore, removing light levels would allow more players to enter the raid even sooner, and make spoilers proliferate. No mater how low the bar is to get into the raid, there are always going to be some players who can't put in that number of hours in a single week. I think the 1 week term is catering to squeaky wheel streamers who will cry content drought if they don't have new things.

If it's not that then I don't know what. I certainly hope Bungie thinks they're launching a game with more than a week's worth of first-run content in it.

Solution to that is raids come out later, not allowing progression to max light to take place within a week. Sheesh.

Okay, but we know that's not happening. That's up to Bungie, not me.

Or, you know, don't read spoilers.

You act like that's easy or even possible. We had potentially pretty big spoilers posted in this very forum with no tags like a day ago. Telling people to just avoid spoilers is never a good argument. If they were avoidable, they wouldn't be called spoilers.

Plenty of people in the past have avoided spoilers in the forum by avoiding the forum itself.

It is always possible to avoid spoilers. It is not always convenient to do so, nor is it possible to do so without seriously modifying one's own behavior in ways that not everyone likes or are willing to accept.

However, it's a heck of a lot easier to modify your own habits, which you're in control of, then to get everyone to stop posting spoilers, or to get Bungie to figure out the magical launch date that makes sure no one who wants a blind raid run is spoiled, but at the same time, the bleeding edge streamers don't scream that the game is dying from lack of content because the raid hasn't dropped yet.

I get what you're saying, and I completely agree. I'd love for the raid to have been released after a month instead of a week.

But we're all still assuming a Destiny 1 styled rush to the raid. It's totally possible that the story will lead you exactly to the raid in terms of both plot/motivation and light level. That's what I'm hoping for.

You're hoping for Destiny 2 to feature only a week's worth of content at launch?

The only thing I can hope for is the idea that they've put in enough roadblocks to progress that it won't actually matter-- that the gap between the highest light player and the lowest is such that it won't really be possible (or perhaps at least not so easy) for people to get spoiled by seeing a lot of raid content long before they're ready.

For instance if the best level up opportunities are keyed to weekly activities, then it doesn't matter how many crazy hours the bleeding edge of players and streamers are putting in, they'll still be just as raid-unready as you when it drops. So assuming you're even high enough light to launch the activity on day 1, you might as well go in because you wouldn't be seeing much less of it than anyone else who tries.

I think the problem comes where speed leveling makes it possible for those who spend a lot of hours to hit max light before the raid drops (which might be 20 points over the minimum for the raid) whereas others may be 10 or even 20 points under at the same time, and unable to even join the activity.

I'm guessing it's not that aggressively gated, though, which means lots of people will end up seeing raid content before they play it.

I'm not even annoyed, but. I brought that up to point out that what you're annoyed by isn't repetition- it's the underlying investment system! Once we get there it's basically just "Here's where we agree to disagree" because it's been literal years.

I know investment systems are about having things. I can't say anything to being told that.

If you want to talk about investment systems in some more depth, I made a (admittedly pretty weak) argument further down the post. Other than that, I've got nothing.

My real point is still that this whole discussion was you taking a reasonable position, couching "It's a problem that they're incentivised to repeat something for rewards, whatever they're repeating" as "There is no conceptual difference whatsoever" was really dumb. Because that's only true from a certain perspective, which is hardly how the conceptual properties of things work.

Wait, wait. So, by this logic, should it matter if the actions are restructured, or reordered, if they are at their core repeated? This is where we get to the disconnect between your emphasis on mastering skills vs. most everyone else's emphasis on fun. And I'm not knocking your priorities!

But sometimes you want to repeat actions to gain mastery, and sometimes you want to repeat actions to have fun.

Investment systems focus on what you have. Mastery is about what you know.