D1 = 6 opponents, 3 golden gun shots (4 with proper gear)
D2 = 4 opponents, 6 golden gun shots

I don't put myself in the "butthurt hunter" group but it's actually like they are aggressively trolling us.

I know, there are technical restrictions related to the public spaces, but still. It would be nice to not be forced into splitting up into smaller groups.

In general, though, 4v4 doesn't make any sense to me. The base pve game is 3v3. The raids are for 6. PvP should evenly accept teams along those lines, which is to say, multiples of 3. 4v4 is weird, and means if you want to pvp and then go to pve one of your friends is just SOL. In fact, even if both teams want to leave together, 2 people are SOL. it's pretty crappy. I really hope they add a 6v6 mode back in. And 3v3. I'm okay with them keeping 4v4, because it makes more sense for objective based gameplay to have even numbers of players, but it's really weird to split the playerbase in uneven groupings this way.

I agree with this concern, it's legitimate.

The concept of Freedom Slots includes moving things like Snipers to the Power slot.

My understanding of the 'Freedom Slots' was that any weapon type in the Kinetic slot can be equipped in the Energy slot - there's nothing at all about a Sniper (clearly a 'Power' weapon) being viable there. Do you know something I don't?

You don’t get Freedom Slots without relegating the Shotguns, Fusion Rifles, and Sniper Rifles that used to be in slot 2 (and that caused no end of balance problems over the last three years) to the Power slot. That Power weapons aren’t viable in a Freedom Slot is the entire point! By removing them, we now have the Freedom to use any remaining weapon type in either slot.

Sorry - my bad, I read your response incorrectly. I thought you were suggesting that snipers could be implemented into the 'freedom slot' - you meant exactly the opposite. Never mind.

It is interesting that you put it this way. Uncharged melees are 3HK, with a charged melee it is a 2HK. Albeit, the only character who that is practical on is a Gambler's Dodge Poledancer. Every other class is lucky to get to use three melee charges a game, and half the time you'll just get burnt by an SMG or combined fire anyway.

Since I usually run hunter, I try not to get so close enough to make melee an option, only in a close quarter panic do I start punching wildly. Most of the time the first melee is preceded by a few bullets, then two quick melees. Sometimes I win, sometimes I don't. This is the same in D1 and D2. I do use the throwing knife often. It's a viable option in D1. D2 not so much, the damage it causes is not equal to the time it takes to get back into bullets.

At best it's a last ditch effort if you know you're losing the fight or run out of ammo.

The concept of Freedom Slots includes moving things like Snipers to the Power slot.

My understanding of the 'Freedom Slots' was that any weapon type in the Kinetic slot can be equipped in the Energy slot - there's nothing at all about a Sniper (clearly a 'Power' weapon) being viable there. Do you know something I don't?

You don’t get Freedom Slots without relegating the Shotguns, Fusion Rifles, and Sniper Rifles that used to be in slot 2 (and that caused no end of balance problems over the last three years) to the Power slot. That Power weapons aren’t viable in a Freedom Slot is the entire point! By removing them, we now have the Freedom to use any remaining weapon type in either slot.

Melee is fine but the melee ability, worthless. (I've only played solar hunter so far btw)

It is interesting that you put it this way. Uncharged melees are 3HK, with a charged melee it is a 2HK. Albeit, the only character who that is practical on is a Gambler's Dodge Poledancer. Every other class is lucky to get to use three melee charges a game, and half the time you'll just get burnt by an SMG or combined fire anyway.

In agreement with a lot of the rest of what you said.

The concept of Freedom Slots includes moving things like Snipers to the Power slot.

My understanding of the 'Freedom Slots' was that any weapon type in the Kinetic slot can be equipped in the Energy slot - there's nothing at all about a Sniper (clearly a 'Power' weapon) being viable there. Do you know something I don't?

The concept of Freedom Slots includes moving things like Snipers to the Power slot. And even if I somehow have the terminology slightly wrong, knowing that you would no longer be able to do that is completely relevant! We’ve known for a long time that things were changing. You should have worked to be ready for that change. Maining No Land Beyond was already an... odd... decision. Continuing to do so after we found out about the changes to the weapon slots... Very odd. And that’s being super generous...

1) Freedom slots are only the top two slots. Power weapons will not be in freedom slots.
2) It's fine that it's odd. It's fun, was a great challenge to learn to use well and works for me.
3) And I'm still playing D1, I'm not preparing to play D2. I'm not training for an event or tournament. I don't need to change loadout to prepare cause that's not why I'm playing the game. When all I have is D2, I'll play D2.

Your thumb skills, but you think you have stayed as fresh in normal gun vs normal gun firefights? Doubtful. You’ve spent the last year basically not playing with the rest of us. Sniping from the back while the rest of us get to serve as your meat shields... Not so fun for us, you know?

My thumb skills are just fine with other guns. I still go do all the weapon type bounties and get them done without problem. I'm not uncomfortable using anything in the game. I may not be great, but I feel just fine using whatever. I'll find a way to make it work.

And no one's my meat shield. I'm pretty consistently at the top of the rooms I'm in 6s. You can't do that without getting in the fray and getting kills.

What I really want to know is why you're so salty about this towards me? There's literally no reason to be.

Wow. That seems pretty short sighted of you. Especially since Destiny 2’s Freedom Slots were announced a few months ago.

I'm commenting on lack of getting to snipe (which is what I enjoy about the game). NLB ensures you can always snipe. Freedom slots are irrelevant to my comment. It's doubtful that D2 would move snipers to a power slot and then have any sniper be equipable in a freedom slot.

The concept of Freedom Slots includes moving things like Snipers to the Power slot. And even if I somehow have the terminology slightly wrong, knowing that you would no longer be able to do that is completely relevant! We’ve known for a long time that things were changing. You should have worked to be ready for that change. Maining No Land Beyond was already an... odd... decision. Continuing to do so after we found out about the changes to the weapon slots... Very odd. And that’s being super generous...

You don’t have to be god-like. You just need some practice.

I doubt practice is what I need. I'm pretty much at the top of what my thumb-skill will ever be, and that would be ok if the alternative means to countering a better player were still available. By reducing both the quantity and effectiveness of supers and abilities, you've put the game even more squarely in the hands (should I say thumbs) of those who already have it squarely in their hands and need no advantage or favors.

Your thumb skills, but you think you have stayed as fresh in normal gun vs normal gun firefights? Doubtful. You’ve spent the last year basically not playing with the rest of us. Sniping from the back while the rest of us get to serve as your meat shields... Not so fun for us, you know?

I also find I'm more quickly on the wrong side of the map. I tend to outlive my opponents because I bug out of situations, which generally means my teammates end up dying and spawning on the opposite and suddenly I'm outnumbered in a bad spot.

Lastly, I find I can't stand my ground as much. It's just not worth it to go 1 v 1. That could be because the hunters don't have much resilience, I dunno. But I find myself spending a good bit of time just running away from bad situations. Kill one or two, run to the other side of the map to avoid being outnumbered. Repeat.

Wow. That seems pretty short sighted of you. Especially since Destiny 2’s Freedom Slots were announced a few months ago.

I'm commenting on lack of getting to snipe (which is what I enjoy about the game). NLB ensures you can always snipe. Freedom slots are irrelevant to my comment. It's doubtful that D2 would move snipers to a power slot and then have any sniper be equipable in a freedom slot.

You don’t have to be god-like. You just need some practice.

I doubt practice is what I need. I'm pretty much at the top of what my thumb-skill will ever be, and that would be ok if the alternative means to countering a better player were still available. By reducing both the quantity and effectiveness of supers and abilities, you've put the game even more squarely in the hands (should I say thumbs) of those who already have it squarely in their hands and need no advantage or favors.

D1 gunfights = bang bang...I'm dead..I thought I had him, darn.
D2 gunfights = bang bang bang...uh oh, im losing this, gtfo, live to fight.

It's also tough to judge the weapons so far because everyone is using the same loadout and we don't know how good these weapons are compared to the full platter we will get in the game.

Across the board, (supers, grenades, melees, abilities etc) I wish cooldowns were a bit quicker, or the action were more significant. 6 shots golden gun is nice...but damn...it lasts, what.. 7 seconds? guh. Grenades are just worthless. Melee is fine but the melee ability, worthless. (I've only played solar hunter so far btw)

It needs some tweaks but I've enjoyed the PvP.

but given that I've run NLB/sidearm (and the sidearms I've gotten suck, too) exclusively for the better part of a year

Wow. That seems pretty short sighted of you. Especially since Destiny 2’s Freedom Slots were announced a few months ago.

but they are killing the fun out of PvP for any of us who aren't God-like players.

You don’t have to be god-like. You just need some practice. It’s still a ton of fun. ‘Course it would be more so for you right now if you hadn’t tried to turn Destiny into Sniper Pro Elite III or whatever.

I'm pretty sure everyone else is happy...

Not gonna lie, I’ve been anticipating this day with a good deal of glee. Instead of cursing the hard scoped snipers, I’ve silently smiled knowing that soon they’d have to relearn how to play. Great to hear that confirmed.

I've already been critical of nerfing cool downs as well as power, at least one of these may be rectified through aspects of the gear system that we do not have access to in the Beta. However, while I do think that a degree of additional power for grenades would have merit (albeit I am fine with stickies still not being a one-shot on a Guardian with higher resistance) that is mostly from cases of feeling like they aren't even good for finishing a Guardian off as they retreat behind cover from a gunfight.

So, with a substantial focus on gunplay (as it takes 3 uncharged melees or 2 with a charged melee to kill without any shots fired, and an SMG can outpace 3 melees in damage/grenades seem very situational in lethality) the purpose of abilities is diminished in both frequency and power. But what is the purpose of those abilities? Melee is best when used in conjunction with a weapon. As are grenades. However, I think that the most important things for grenades to be able to do is aid in controlling combat flow.

For Control it seems in most cases the best strategy is just to roam around as a group, when you find a target, team shot and there is nothing they can do. If they have a friend, one person peels off for a flank and you counter most of the class ability play. Highly simplified, but still important. I'd like to see grenades stay as a support/mop up action, so they don't need crazy damage increases, though some grenades may need more tinkering than others. But what they can do is help you break up those team clusters that roam the map, or allow you to zone off a doorway, or at least delay being challenged through a doorway. These are great tactical uses of your abilities. My problem is when I get to use these only a handful of times during a game and it really makes it feel limited.

The gunplay is solid and feels good, usually. There may be some hit registration stuff, delayed damage specifically, that irks me. Both on receiving and dealing. It is refreshing to still pickup a kill as you are pretty sure they rabbited away. But it definitely feels bad when know you had full cover and still get finished off. The gunplay itself gets replaced by coordinated fire, though. It loses the quality dance of a 1v1 when you are on either end of team shooting, and given that roaming CFs are more effective than a lot of tactical flanking means that you see more of that.

So, tl;dr ver.

- Gunplay feels good.
- Team shooting is more dominant/less interesting play.
- Grenades should be able to more reliably split groups through either a threat of frequency or power.
- Health Regen is already delayed enough that you are still relatively easy to mop up if you can't get support.
- It will be nice when specs vary due to gear (as it anticipated) so that I don't run into 4 games in a row where not a single super gets used/are all used within about 10 seconds of each other in the last minute of the match.