Was in this article, but I'm not sure if that's the original source.

And he even addresses those of you that are concerned about this limiting the fun of getting a gun again:

"How can my second, third, and tenth Better Devils hand cannon be interesting? That's a question we should be asking and answering as quickly as we can, we have ideas. While I would like nothing more than to share those ideas with you, we're up against [a deadline]. I don't know if they'll make it for our Sept. 6 [release] date. But we have some ideas that we're pretty excited about."

If 0.04% changes the damage value sufficiently to modify your per-shot damage when appropriate rounding is considered (or applies a damage ahift to precision instead of body shots) then 0.04% may be a reasonable change. More data is required.

They already admitted it was a mistake.

It wasn't at all my point, but since you ask, I suppose it might be, yes. If the rate of success is fantastically low, then it could be come minor relief at the end of a lot of frustration instead of fun.

But, I still want to know how often it works.

So this gives me hope that you'll be able to find a gun you like using without feeling compelled to switch to the flavor of the month god-roll gun since bungie can now tweak individual weapons rather than tweaking only entire archetypes at a time. Instead of "All ARs now deal 0.04% more damage" you'll see "Shadow Price deals 0.04% more damage while Suros Regime deals 0.22% less damage." and then you'll still facepalm because 0.04% is such an absurdly small change to make that, even though they deny it, it *has* to have been a mistake where they meant 4% or 0.04.

I would rather see perks change playstyle rather than change weapon performance. I'm not saying this is an easy problem to solve, but you see it with things like Telesto, where you can set traps by spraying the walls and floors, etc. You are actually approaching combat differently.

Huh. Not only have i never done this, I've never seen this done. I've never (before right now) even HEARD of this being done. That sounds pretty cool!

Telesto has been around for almost 2 years now. Wish I'd known about this earlier!

If you shoot the wall or floor, when the 'needles' explode they can do damage to anyone near them. Nobody really expects it!

Like I said, never even heard of it. Wouldn't expect it because it wasn't even in my set of possibilities! :)

I would rather see perks change playstyle rather than change weapon performance. I'm not saying this is an easy problem to solve, but you see it with things like Telesto, where you can set traps by spraying the walls and floors, etc. You are actually approaching combat differently.

Huh. Not only have i never done this, I've never seen this done. I've never (before right now) even HEARD of this being done. That sounds pretty cool!

Telesto has been around for almost 2 years now. Wish I'd known about this earlier!

If you shoot the wall or floor, when the 'needles' explode they can do damage to anyone near them. Nobody really expects it!

I would rather see perks change playstyle rather than change weapon performance. I'm not saying this is an easy problem to solve, but you see it with things like Telesto, where you can set traps by spraying the walls and floors, etc. You are actually approaching combat differently.

Huh. Not only have i never done this, I've never seen this done. I've never (before right now) even HEARD of this being done. That sounds pretty cool!

Telesto has been around for almost 2 years now. Wish I'd known about this earlier!

Anyone else read this and think, "They favored composition over inheritance this time around, giving them more flexibility to generate new weapons and sub-archetypes."

I've been studying a lot of CS lately and that's the first thing that came to my mind. Kudos to them for making a more flexible set of weapons. Should make sandbox updates considerably better in D2.

Yeah, the concept certainly fits, but as BlackT1ger mentioned, in actuality it's probably an Entity Component System.

PS: If anyone is interested in what Composition vs. Inheritance is, this is a moderately entertaining link that involves "murder robot dogs." Dark, but makes a good case: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfMtDGfHWpA

Heh. That was a fun instructional video contrasting some of the advantages of Composition over Inheritance. I disagree with him that there is never a good reason to use inheritance, sometimes it's the right tool, but composition is usually a better way to go.

"[T]he tuning path is pretty different this time. The weapons are all hand built in a way where, before, they had random talents– We can look at an entire archetype like hand cannons. And then we can look at data on usage rates for hand cannons, and sort usage rates, and then within usage rates, check [kill death ratios] per hand cannon and find out what is actually effective and what’s not.
And then, because the weapons are all hand built, we can take a given hand cannon and say “let’s change this one hand cannon” rather than “let’s pave this entire archetype.” So we have opportunities in front of us that we haven’t had before because of the way we’ve built the weapons and hopefully we’ll seize those opportunities."

Anyone else read this and think, "They favored composition over inheritance this time around, giving them more flexibility to generate new weapons and sub-archetypes."

I've been studying a lot of CS lately and that's the first thing that came to my mind. Kudos to them for making a more flexible set of weapons. Should make sandbox updates considerably better in D2.

My understanding is most game developers have been writing games like that for years now. This is known as an Entity-Component-System (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entity–component–system). I'd be surprised to find our they didn't handle it like this in Destiny 1. It seems more likely to me that they did do this, but the weapons and the attributes were actually too separate such that they weren't able to modify how a specific attribute behaves when attached to a specific weapon because they didn't have a way to distinguish which weapon the attribute was attached to. Most likely the attributes had to be split up so that hand cannons get hand-cannon-specific attributes which they could tune, but they couldn't tune the attribute for specific hand cannons.

I pretty much fully agree. I doubt destiny's guns & archetypes are coded in-code as an inheritance tree. Perhaps they were represented this way in the data defining the guns & how they behave, and the specific perks followed a composition pattern (again, in the data, not in the source).

BUT! In the spirit of what BeardFade was wondering... yeah, the concept fits.

What I suspect is that Bungie has enumerated each possible unique gun (be it random roll, or a set of hand picked perks) so that they can inspect & target each unique gun for balancing.

What I HOPE is that they've reduced the possible combinations of perks (hand picked rolls if you will) and will communicate which roll/unique_gun it is in the gun name. I'm thinking of how they're reducing the combinations of possible sub-class configurations, you get choose this set, or that set; only I'm applying that concept to the possible rolls of a gun. Your roll is this set or that set. We'll see.

I front paged it just now, but I wanted to highlight a point of interest from the interview:

"[T]he tuning path is pretty different this time. The weapons are all hand built in a way where, before, they had random talents– We can look at an entire archetype like hand cannons. And then we can look at data on usage rates for hand cannons, and sort usage rates, and then within usage rates, check [kill death ratios] per hand cannon and find out what is actually effective and what’s not.
And then, because the weapons are all hand built, we can take a given hand cannon and say “let’s change this one hand cannon” rather than “let’s pave this entire archetype.” So we have opportunities in front of us that we haven’t had before because of the way we’ve built the weapons and hopefully we’ll seize those opportunities."

Seems to imply the weapons won't have random perks doesn't it? Pretty interesting either way.

I have always disliked how random the guns were. I hope this means weapon names will have greater meaning. As in, "Oh, sweet! I got a ABCXYZ! That's a great gun." Instead of "Oh, I got a BBQPDQ, I hope it's a good roll!" (double rng = :( and it's only good with certain perks = loss of meaning).

I think you are reading too much into what he is saying here. (See my other post)

I'm hoping, not expecting.

I front paged it just now, but I wanted to highlight a point of interest from the interview:

"[T]he tuning path is pretty different this time. The weapons are all hand built in a way where, before, they had random talents– We can look at an entire archetype like hand cannons. And then we can look at data on usage rates for hand cannons, and sort usage rates, and then within usage rates, check [kill death ratios] per hand cannon and find out what is actually effective and what’s not.
And then, because the weapons are all hand built, we can take a given hand cannon and say “let’s change this one hand cannon” rather than “let’s pave this entire archetype.” So we have opportunities in front of us that we haven’t had before because of the way we’ve built the weapons and hopefully we’ll seize those opportunities."

Seems to imply the weapons won't have random perks doesn't it? Pretty interesting either way.

I have always disliked how random the guns were. I hope this means weapon names will have greater meaning. As in, "Oh, sweet! I got a ABCXYZ! That's a great gun." Instead of "Oh, I got a BBQPDQ, I hope it's a good roll!" (double rng = :( and it's only good with certain perks = loss of meaning).

I think you are reading too much into what he is saying here. (See my other post)

I've been studying a lot of CS lately and that's the first thing that came to my mind. Kudos to them for making a more flexible set of weapons. Should make sandbox updates considerably better in D2.

PS: If anyone is interested in what Composition vs. Inheritance is, this is a moderately entertaining link that involves "murder robot dogs." Dark, but makes a good case: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfMtDGfHWpA