If you build your synergies right, the line between the two gets even more blurred. Take a look at something like Path Of Exile wherecrazyass builds are possible, mostly due to a series of small statistical tweaks that build up.

There is another fundamental problem with this approach, in that it leads to an objective ‘best’ set of choices which players should take if they want to be competitive / do the most damage. This problem is exacerbated if you have a lot of talents, since the overall outcome isn't necessarily that clear to the player when they make the decision (in software design this is called analysis or choice paralysis).

This is a problem WoW's talent system suffered from up until the most recent expansion; the outcome was that a large number of players (basically everyone who wanted to be competitive in PvP or raiding) would refer to third-party sites where the optimal build of talents had been tried and tested. This actually leads to even less choice, since you're effectively choosing between optimal and suboptimal builds, and niche/‘fun’ builds end up left by the wayside.

The solution WoW and Diablo III went with was to give players a choice between a set of mutually-exclusive options at various points, with the choices made interesting and less damage/healing-focused. Games like Path of Exile and Torchlight still use the old-fashioned talent tree system, and whilst that will obviously appeal to some players, ultimately they're sub-optimal gaming systems which don't lead to fun gameplay.

If powers and upgrades are regulated to the team aspect, this could greatly alleviate some of the issues you were having with simple steroid leveling leading to easier encounters, but at some level this will never be fixed.

I really like this idea. If the trade-offs can only be alleviated by playing with friends I think that is a fantastic way to make the game fun. Now the hard part would be balancing the trade-offs well enough so that when a player is lone wolfing they can still manage.

I don't know for sure, since nobody knows what Destiny really is. That being said:

There is a difference between leveling up / advancing a character to make the game easier vs doing the same to make the game harder or more complex.

Think of it this way. You level up in a JRPG or Diablo or something. You are more powerful, so the game becomes easier. You can kill enemies you couldn't before. This doesn't make the game more complex.

Leveling up in Deus Ex on the other hand, DOES make the game more complex, because the designers made this cool world which you could tackle in many different way with many different skill and augmentation combinations, each enabling a very different experience.

Think of it this way:

Bad: You should always level up, since there's no downside and it can only help. You can always level up more if you put in time to gain exp.
Good: Leveling up has tradeoffs or is a strategic decision. Only a set amount of exp that's the same for all players (roughly), so do with it what you wish.

I hear what you're saying. You definitely don't want to rob areas and enemies of dignity if you can one shot them when it used to take much more to kill them, or there being no reason to return to Old Russia if it's filled with lvl 5's.

So you can scale enemies, and that works for a while before getting too ridiculous.

And you don't want to just keep exponentially increasing the player's scale of power (i.e. Borderlands 2) to the point where, compared to you as a lvl 2, you are now godlike and smite lvl 2's enmass by blinking.

This seems to come to a head with the idea of the trifecta and the wolfpack. So right now there are three distinct classes and a focus on the team aspect. I believe they will leverage the idea of the fireteam to balance battles and omnipotent leveling.

Example: Let's say you're a Badass mecha Titan lvl 50 with supergunnygun. You have picked many physics altering power upgrades so that up close you are a force of nature, but when you use said power, your shields drain and leaves you open for long ranged attack. Now let's also say that these limitations in each class defies normal hit points and leaves your superweakpoint exposed. Unless the Hunter next to you drops a shield or gets the attention off you, you're toast. All the while, this bad mofo is heading your way and you're still in recharge... until Mr.Warlock amps you up with instant recharge and ubercharge (why not?) so you can take on the sob.

If powers and upgrades are regulated to the team aspect, this could greatly alleviate some of the issues you were having with simple steroid leveling leading to easier encounters, but at some level this will never be fixed. At some point, the right combo of powers will be spec'd to make the optimized ease of fighting, and hopefully it won't get to a level where people steamroll the game and it's levels. But even if they do, I can choose to ally myself with a fireteam that works in synchronicity.

2 franchises, one saved human race.

much more of taking off just the tip with a bread knife and maiming the finger next to it a bit, not nearly as cool as it getting snipped off by a dimensional tear closing, but it grew back mostly...

The thought of a version of me out there in quantum flux that likes Journey, Fez, and Limbo is terrifying.

On the bright side, there's a version of the universe out there where those are good games?

I just figured it out: Cody lives in a different universe than us!

There's a game in the box. Does Cody like it?

The thought of a version of me out there in quantum flux that likes Journey, Fez, and Limbo is terrifying.

On the bright side, there's a version of the universe out there where those are good games?

Here's an example, there's this boss, you need to be a really good player to get past it. You could play and play and keep trying, and butt your head against a wall to get better. Eventually you beat him, and while it feels great you had to go through a ton of misery to get there.

Again, failure to properly balance difficulty. Designing a proper difficulty curve fixes this without the need for leveling. The only bosses that should require you to be a good player to beat are the ones on hard mode, or far enough along in the game that the player has become good by that point.

I'm assuming that the rest of the bosses and challenge has been skill appropriate up to that point.

That assumes a couple things.

1. It assumes linearity. Which is great for a baggy pipe design like Dues Ex or Halo, but less appropriate for something more open like destiny, as it would effectively make the game more linear (Kind of like old MUDs, where you even though you could go anywhere, you always had a fairly linear path you had to follow in terms of difficulty), or flatten the challenge in unpleasant ways.
2. It ignores variances within the skill set of similarly experienced players (IE, player A is good enough to get through, but player B lacks some certain skill for the boss in particular)
3. Difficulty spikes can be a tool for good design. They give a player something to see, fail at, and come back to later to measure their progress. Something like Havel or the black knights in the undead burg in dark souls.

I'm under the impression that Cody is suggesting that, fine, have a tough boss, but make sure that leading up that boss you've designed a difficulty curve that effectively coaches the player to overcome that boss because the player has inherently become a better player.

This the holy grail of game design and every developer is probably trying their damndest to achieve that. On top of that they're trying to provide us new worlds to explore, new ways to explore them together, new mechanics, new UIs, and make sure it all doesn't crash down on us at the same time.

Oh and this is still a commercial endeavor so at the same time they're trying to move some units. So I'm pretty understanding when it comes to these things.

No. That's why she plays on EASY and you play on HEROIC. Holy cow dude, think for 2 seconds.

It's like you barely even read my arguments before just reposting the same knee jerk stuff ;)

Okay, so we create some difficulty levels, everyone happy? No, not quite, Halo on easy flat out isn't as interesting a game as Halo on Legendary or Heroic. Ideally, everyone plays the same thing, and you have tools to get them there. Hence, a smart leveling system that allows you to keep players engaged as they grow their skills.

You are correct in that you can make your easy difficulty so easy it ruins the game. I mean, imagine a cover based shooter where easy mode was so easy you never needed to use cover. You broke your game. You are incorrect in thinking leveling up improves PLAYER skill. It boosts the stats of your avatar, but does nothing for the player.

The ability to add more challenge organically is always going to be more interesting in terms of game design than having hard difficulty settings.

Also, I never once said this, "You are incorrect in thinking leveling up improves PLAYER skill. It boosts the stats of your avatar, but does nothing for the player."

Hence, a smart leveling system that allows you to keep players engaged as they grow their skills

Your words. Unless you meant to say grow their avatar's skills?

Edit for clarity.

No, I mean the player gets better by playing, Having loot/gear is a carrot to move them from an unsatisfying activity (getting their ass handed to them by a boss) to a satisfying one (Completing an optional mission for some reward). Gaining levels and loot is a reward, people like getting rewards, so they play a different area to get them. In this way the game can encourage a player to step back from the boss, go do something they'll succeed at. While succeeding at something else, they improve, while simultaneously improving their avatar (effectively making things easier).

Here's an example, there's this boss, you need to be a really good player to get past it. You could play and play and keep trying, and butt your head against a wall to get better. Eventually you beat him, and while it feels great you had to go through a ton of misery to get there.

Having loot, and the ability to gain levels, and power up your character via side missions, or repeating content (within limits mind you, no one likes a crazy grind). This has two functions. All that time you've been playing other content, you've been getting better because you have been playing the game. You've now also made that boss easier by having better equipment. In this way, instead of banging your head against a boss, again, and again, and again the game has pointed you to something fun (New Missions, new gear!) and you've beaten the boss. This kind of learning curve is much more satisfying than hitting the "Restart" button 50 times.

I think the problem here is you setup the alternative as having a boss that is so hard that you can only try try try again to beat it and that there's nothing else to do in the game aside from that.

I'm under the impression that Cody is suggesting that, fine, have a tough boss, but make sure that leading up that boss you've designed a difficulty curve that effectively coaches the player to overcome that boss because the player has inherently become a better player.

That is also separate to the fact that Cody is also saying he likes leveling that effectively makes a player make a trade off: if I focus on hacking, which WHO WOULDN'T in Deux Ex, then I won't be able to engage in firefights as easily, shaping my approach to levels.

I personally do not enjoy levelling, frankly it frustrates me when I feel a game is moving on without me changing all that much. I DO enjoy a game that I can tailor (i.e. a battle is raging on the other side of this cliff, before you jump into the fray do you take a sniper rifle or a shotgun). But levelling will never be something that keeps me from playing a game, and I know I'm repeating myself here, if it convinces more people to play and I have a larger pool to draw my fireteam from, I'll swallow my medicine, assign points to my skill tree, and get right on with it.

Here's an example, there's this boss, you need to be a really good player to get past it. You could play and play and keep trying, and butt your head against a wall to get better. Eventually you beat him, and while it feels great you had to go through a ton of misery to get there.

Again, failure to properly balance difficulty. Designing a proper difficulty curve fixes this without the need for leveling. The only bosses that should require you to be a good player to beat are the ones on hard mode, or far enough along in the game that the player has become good by that point.

I'm assuming that the rest of the bosses and challenge has been skill appropriate up to that point.

No. That's why she plays on EASY and you play on HEROIC. Holy cow dude, think for 2 seconds.

It's like you barely even read my arguments before just reposting the same knee jerk stuff ;)

Okay, so we create some difficulty levels, everyone happy? No, not quite, Halo on easy flat out isn't as interesting a game as Halo on Legendary or Heroic. Ideally, everyone plays the same thing, and you have tools to get them there. Hence, a smart leveling system that allows you to keep players engaged as they grow their skills.

You are correct in that you can make your easy difficulty so easy it ruins the game. I mean, imagine a cover based shooter where easy mode was so easy you never needed to use cover. You broke your game. You are incorrect in thinking leveling up improves PLAYER skill. It boosts the stats of your avatar, but does nothing for the player.

The ability to add more challenge organically is always going to be more interesting in terms of game design than having hard difficulty settings.

Also, I never once said this, "You are incorrect in thinking leveling up improves PLAYER skill. It boosts the stats of your avatar, but does nothing for the player."

Hence, a smart leveling system that allows you to keep players engaged as they grow their skills

Your words. Unless you meant to say grow their avatar's skills?

Edit for clarity.

No, I mean the player gets better by playing, Having loot/gear is a carrot to move them from an unsatisfying activity (getting their ass handed to them by a boss) to a satisfying one (Completing an optional mission for some reward). Gaining levels and loot is a reward, people like getting rewards, so they play a different area to get them. In this way the game can encourage a player to step back from the boss, go do something they'll succeed at. While succeeding at something else, they improve, while simultaneously improving their avatar (effectively making things easier).

Here's an example, there's this boss, you need to be a really good player to get past it. You could play and play and keep trying, and butt your head against a wall to get better. Eventually you beat him, and while it feels great you had to go through a ton of misery to get there.

Having loot, and the ability to gain levels, and power up your character via side missions, or repeating content (within limits mind you, no one likes a crazy grind). This has two functions. All that time you've been playing other content, you've been getting better because you have been playing the game. You've now also made that boss easier by having better equipment. In this way, instead of banging your head against a boss, again, and again, and again the game has pointed you to something fun (New Missions, new gear!) and you've beaten the boss. This kind of learning curve is much more satisfying than hitting the "Restart" button 50 times.

No. That's why she plays on EASY and you play on HEROIC. Holy cow dude, think for 2 seconds.

It's like you barely even read my arguments before just reposting the same knee jerk stuff ;)

Okay, so we create some difficulty levels, everyone happy? No, not quite, Halo on easy flat out isn't as interesting a game as Halo on Legendary or Heroic. Ideally, everyone plays the same thing, and you have tools to get them there. Hence, a smart leveling system that allows you to keep players engaged as they grow their skills.

You are correct in that you can make your easy difficulty so easy it ruins the game. I mean, imagine a cover based shooter where easy mode was so easy you never needed to use cover. You broke your game. You are incorrect in thinking leveling up improves PLAYER skill. It boosts the stats of your avatar, but does nothing for the player.

The ability to add more challenge organically is always going to be more interesting in terms of game design than having hard difficulty settings.

Also, I never once said this, "You are incorrect in thinking leveling up improves PLAYER skill. It boosts the stats of your avatar, but does nothing for the player."

Hence, a smart leveling system that allows you to keep players engaged as they grow their skills

Your words. Unless you meant to say grow their avatar's skills?